lou: we have finally overcome the economic crisis of 2008. at least in terms of the unemployment rate. but it did take 59 months. investors responded to the report with a strong rally on wall street. i'm lou dobbs. ♪ good evening, everybody. investors today reacting to positive economic news and a very favorable way for wall street despite the expectation that a growing economy will lead to the end of the federal reserve easing money policies. first to the economy, t november jobs report showed an unemployment rate of 7%. that is t lowest monthly

unemployment rate since the december before president obama took office. the economy beating expectations , creating more than 200,000 jobs last month. with september and october payroll numbs also revised higher. the labor force participation rate ticked up for the first time in nearly five years. after hitting a 35 year low in october. and the total number of people out of work including the unemployed and the under employed dropped by more than a million people last month. those job gains and a broad range of industries, including higher paying sectors like mafacturing and construction, which added 27,000 new jobs alone last month. wall street today indicated investors may now be prepared to bid adios to quantitative easing despite lingering fears that the better reserve will quit its easing money policies in. the doubt -- dow jones industrials rose nearly 200 points on theate snapping a

5-day losing streak and now back above 16,000. the s&p snapped its own five day losing streak today, up 20 points, moving back over 1800. and the nasdaq up 29 points on the day, reaching a new 52 week high closing above 4,000. today's paper gain, approximately $225 billion on the wilshire 5,000. for the week the dow and s&p down from ending an 8-week winning streak, and the nasdaq, that stream continues, up for a fourth straight week. the encouraging jobs report stimulated investors, but it is likely to do something of a drag on one are already sluggish budget -- budget talks. the white house calling the jobs numbers not good enough, pushing hard for an extension of unemployment benefits in the ongoing budget negotiations. jay carney, the president's view that there is an almost limitless opportunity to extend federaspending programs of any

kind irrespective of changing improving conditions. >> i noted the 7 percent unemployment rate which has ticked down which is good news, but it is still far too high and it is still significantly higher than the 56 percent unemployment rate which compelled president george w. bush to sign an extension of unemployment benefits when he was in office. and on the long-term umployed i think that that -- the news we have today reinforces that we need to address this problem and to extend unemployment insurance benefits. lou: republicans argue that the positive jobs report is a reason to end of the federal benefits that were introduced and repeatedly renewed follong the onset of the economic crisis in 2008. house speaker wrote in a statement, today's report includes positive signs that should discourage calls for more emergency government stimulus.

instead, what our economy needs is more pro-growth solutions that get government out of the way. south africans morning yesterday's death of anti-apartheid hero nelson mandela. the former south african president toine at the age of 95 will be buried in a state funeral december 15th at his ancestral home on the eastern cape province. mandela's official memorial service will be tuesday in johannesburg. president obama and first lady michele will travel to south africa next week to pay their respects. president bill clinton, hillary clinton, president george w. bush, and laura bush will also be in attendance. washington d.c. will honor mandela as well with a week of tributes, including candlelight vigils athe south afran embassy and the memorial service to at the washington national cathedral. that next wednesday. a deep freeze gripping much of the united states tonight. a deadly storm with arctic air

packing a snelling and i see plunged hitting states from the south to the great lakes. the nationaleath service issuing winter storm and ice warnings for parts of texas, oklahoma, arkansas, mississippi, missouri, illinois, and indiana. in arkansas the state's governor declared a statewide emergency to make it easier for crews to repair damage to downed trees and power lines. in missouri, forecasters are warning of up to 8 inches of snow, that will fall later denied. the bad weather turning deadly in texas. at least two people were killed in car accidents as a result of the storm. about a quarter of a million people in dallas are without power tonight, and airlines have canceled almoot 2,000 flights, most of them out of dallas, fort worth. this same system swept through the plans yesterday dumping one to 2 feet of snow in parts of minnesota and wisconsin. fox news meteorologist is live in the fox news weather center

with the latest for us on what to expect. rick. >> big impact from this storm, wide reaching from agriculture to livestock, and the natural gas, big problems with the temperatures like this. take a look of the wind chill in glasgow, montana,-40. between-35 and-40 all dayong. -33 and-12 in denver. -8 in armonk. very cold air over very widespread areas. the precipitation is done with areas of the south moving in toward the ohio valley with ts line of rain, little bit of an area of freezing rain and snow to the north. snow is problematic, but the ice is really the biggest danger, and we will see a little bit of a coating of ice across some of the areas around parts of west virginia into pennsylvania. take a look at is what happens as we move forward in time for the evening hours. the storm will move out. by the morning is pretty much gone, but take a look at these temperatures. they do not recover all.

morrow evening, dallas, you don't get out of the '20s. ice on the ground and i still on a lot of the trees and buildings. power outages are widespread as well. that is a problem. i want to move to the west because they're is new storm moving in. tonight's temperatures, again, incredibly cold across areas of the southwest. other night a big agricultural impacts. and then we have the snow moving in. ultimately it is good news. weeed precipitation across areas of the west, especially california. lake tahoe, some of those gloves getting about 2 feet of snow. the bad part is that this storm, again, moves in toward the planes. this is our current storm. gone. by tomorrow you see the cold air still in place, snow across the four corners area, and look at this, sunday at noon this storm ajax exact where the same storm we have seen the last there still has been. another round of that icing rain and snow to the exact same areas

for sunday in to sunday night. lou: thank you very much. appreciated. much more ahead here tonight. another obamacare cover-up is revealed. former romney health care adviser rcts to the latest developments, and me on wall street's triple digit rally on the november jobs numbers. ubs chief economist will be with us to put it all in perspective, and we will also take a look at prison like and whether punishment is any part of incarceration in this country. we will be joined by author robert blocker who has written a book, fascinating. we will also be gging through an number of state prins. we will show you where he has been inreparation for writing the book, the death of@ punishment. all of that and more straight ahead. ♪ lou: another obama cover-up. new e-mails reveal the obama administration knew about a major flaw in the obamacare small business exchange. former romney health care

adviser on this latest obamacare outrage or oversight. next. next. hi honey, did you get e toaster cozy? yep. got all the cozies. [ grandma ] with n fedex one rate, i could ll a box and ship it r one flat rate. so i kn untilt was full. you'd be crazy not to. is tt nana? [ male announcer ] fedex one rate.

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♪ lou: obama administration officialreport more progress with healthcare.gov. they now say that the site fails just about 10 percent of the time. back in octor that failure rate was 25%. government officials also say over three and a half million consumers visited the site from midnight sunday antonin today, but the obama administration still will not tell us what the november enrollment numbers are or how many people actually have insurance. insurers are still complaining that the healthcare applications that they do receive are riddled

with errors. and the house energy and commerce committee releasing new e-mails showing that administration officials knew that they need to delay the health care exchange for small businesses as early as august, but it was not until six weeks later on september 26 that the administration actually announced that it was delaying the on-line portal for small business. energy and commerce committee chairman fred upton said, about that revelation, as the paper trail broadens, we see more a more evidence that the adminiration was fully aware. its signature health care law was not ready for prime tim. the documents we are now reviewing tell a much, much different story than what officials testified to congress. the white house continues to claim healthcare.gov is working better. public sentiment, however, is worsening. a new gallup poll shows the majority of americans, 52 percent, say they want a law scaled back or repealed outright compared with 50% to felt that

way in october. 37 percent said they want a law expanded or kept as is. joining us now, senior fellow at the manhattan institute, former health care policy adviser to the romney campaign and also the author of the new book, how medicaid fails the poor. great to have you here. a member teeseven number of visitors, abovehree and a half million people. should we care? what does it tell us? >> we should care because the old plan is that people had have been canceled. if they cannot get insurance under the new system it is a big problem. it is not just a big problem for those individuals, but the viability of the insurance companies that are now trying to sign up people for whom it will not get paid. lou: my problem is just visiting a side does not mean that anyone is enrolled. anyone who enrolls does not mean that they have been insured. so at what point are we going to have meaningful, substantive answers from this administration about its, to repeat the oft

used phrase, signature health care law. >> well, they had as strong record not just recently come but toughout since 2010 o only disclosing data that is flattering to the administrion . fairly politicized disclosure process, and unfortunately i don't see why that would not continue. lou: given those ratios, no wonder they stonewall on some many fronts. the exchange's between the officials at cms and the contractor, cg guy, sure the administration, as i just shed -- said, the small business exchange, they just knew it s not going to be ready, yet they, as you suggest, refused to let anybody know until effectively the last minute. >> the good news, at least, the small business exchange can be delayed. they delayed it in a way that will not disrupt as much the insurance market for people who work for small businesses. the problem is, they should have done the same thing f for the individual market exchange

because that exchanges not been ready either. they delayed that for a year, we would not be seeing a massive disruption like we are today. lou: and the idea that this administration isatching the number of signups. i will not call them and or insurance signups, but let's just call them signups. for medicaidd outpacing goes for obamacare, aidiculous rate, inverted the ratio they sought and then some. we are looking at the prospect, according to some authorities, $17 trillion in unfunded liabilities because of the unintended, massive expansion of medicaid through the marketing of obamacare. >> well, you know, this is the interesting thing about the law. it is supposed to expand coverage by 30 million people. roughly half of that is through the website, the private insurance exchanges, and half of it is to the medicaid program. what you hear a lot of commentators say is, well, at

least the medicare portion is succeeding because as people are enrolling. as i argue in the book, that is not a success for those people because what all this shows is that people on medicaid fare no better than people with no insunce at all when it comes to actual help of -- health of comes. lou: say that again. medicaid is effectively not working. >> studies show that people on medicare fare no better in terms of things like their mortality, any things like that. so all these people who say we have to pass medicate, expand medicaid because it will save the lives of all these people, thstudies show that that is not the case. lou: the problem, medicaid is a mess. now obamacare is a mess. we don't know where we're headed. at what point will we have a sense as to whether or not people are being insured and when there are sufficient numbers of young people 18o 35 insured to support the model that is the foundation of obamacare self, that is the

young paying for the older. >> i doubt the administration is going to disclose the numbers of young people who are enrolling, unless those numbers are good, which it probably will never be. lou: since when does the president or an administration to decide that they will not tell the american people whether the program they're paying for is worng are not? >> i certainly d't agree with their dilosure strategy, but it wille up to -- i don't know if it can be solved through litigation. if it cannot it will take a new administration of congress to force them to do it. lou: effectively, what you're saying is we may be facing the prospect that we not only have an utterly incompetent and incapable the government, but that we don't have the wherewithal or the resources or avenues to corrected, and we don't know whether to what degree we need to. >> to what degree they have actually disclose anything is because there has been immense political pressure, an immense

pressure from the journalists, friendly journalists. so they trickle that. "we will have to do is get the data from the insurers. sometimes through consultants getting information in disclosing it to be that is where we will get the da. if the prices for the plans that are submitted for the 2015 plan year are higher than in 2014, that will give us an indication that older and sicker people assigning a. lou: older, sicker, and, frankly, we will not at this point no anything subantive about obamacare and the enrollments in subsequent insurae that follows and so, perhaps, the new year. it is outrageous. >> it is a problem, but you can ly hide it so long. they're trying hoping that if they tell people everything is good and they don't disclose a lot of things and people will sign up. they are terrified that if they're is a lot ofad news in the price continues to go up

because only older and sicker people assigning a bit will further discourage and people from signing up the money they need to subsidize insurance for everyone else. i think that will continue to get worse. the hiding and nondisclosure but not succeed. lou: is the model over all in your judgment on the verge of collapse? >> a don't think it's on the verge of collapse. dibble limp r in a crippled way. it will not collapse, but it will not be a success that lives up to the promises. lou: thank you for being here. we appreciate it. up next in a good economic reports good for the markets. ubs chief economist on the sudden change of attitude among investors. good news actually means good news. we're coming right back. ♪

lou: it will cost taxpayers and businesses aost 2 trillion per year. that's right. that is their number. more than 20 times the $80 billion price tag that the obama administration puts into the regulations. this new repor put up on the libertarian competitive enterprise institute marginally

funded by the coke brothers who brought that information. illinois democratic governor pat quinn this week signed a new legislation intended to reform the state's massively underfunded pension system. illinois has $100 billion shortfall in its funding of employee retirement plans, the worst in the country. the new law is expected to cut that liability by about 21 billion, fully fund their retirement system by 2044. we will watch carefully, and no one should hold their breath. labor unions are threatening to file a lawsuit to challenge the new law. that may be sincere, or it may be political theater. you will see about that. stocks ended the day sharply higher onositive developments in both the economy and in the job market, sparking speculation that the fed may choose to taper as early as this month. we will see more ofthe same

from the fed. that will take a wait-and-see approach. we are joined now by harris, the chief economist at ubs. great to have you here. were you surprised by the numbers? >> we would have thought the jobs are going to go up almost 200,000. a little bit more than we thought. we thought that the unemployment rate was going down. not much of a surprise. the market really like these numbers. lou: like the numbers. and the result was surprising, even though previously when there was any position, investors seemed to say, we like the number but not the consequence. keeping, rucing bond purchases by the fed. this look like a strong vote today for a continued health in the economy, growth, and qe3, four, whater you want to take behind this. >> what has happened is that you have corroborating evidence.

improvements in consumer sentiment recently. you have had improvements in business sentiment surveys so gdp, and you have had very -- these are very good earnings numbers for the quarter. it is credible that the economy is doing better. in that case you are noto worried about the fed making a mistake and tapering toussaint. lou: tapering toussaint, as if we kne what time they should begin their tapered. whatever the decision made by the fed, which meets in the middle of the month, what is it, the 19th? >> i believe the 18th and 19th. lou: whatever decision they make right now, that the move in this one person rally suggests instors are prepared to take their medicine, let them take away the punch bowl, however you want to construct it. >> at this point it may have been discussing tapering for over half a year. the markets have pretty much built in right now.

the big issue, are we going to be able to live without so much stimulus. the data suggests that we are. lou: the stimulus and the economy and the markets. as a result of the fedulling back on cue eat whenever the number may be, what is your judgment on the way that we are going to go into 2014 and now we're going to end up both in the markets and economy? >> first of all, the fed has already put a lot of money into the economy, and part of it is sitting at the banks. it has not been put to work yet. it will have the right benefits. next year gdp will be 3%. a 1950 target for s&p 500. lou: say that again. >> 10, 195 tel. lou: you have a lot of alls u elg a l bter rht n marrtas aest. ar weoing to s ctinu stroarng

ve ua sse >> i think so. we aren't -- the s&p 500 operating index could be six to 7% next year. corporate america is doing better. corporate america does better than the overall gdp because the big publicly traded companies are picking up market share from the smaller companies, plus you're doing very well overseas. lou: what if the big boys and girls, all those trillio of dollars available actually get the gets up, the confidence had, so persuaded that the government has suddenly rationally predicted that we see business investment pick up and pick up strongly, start seeing job creation. what would be your outlook? >> we are already seeing job creation be okay. 300,000 a month is enough to get the unemployment rate down, but not as fast as we would like to see. what we need to see right now is capital spending pickup. no, we have seen a few tentative signs.

this ceo business confidence survey, the business roundtable. lou: real money. real money out on the table. >> i think we are going to start to see that. the businesses had enough confidence to do as much hiring is they have the last couple of months, but probably have enough confidence to start doing more capital spending. lou: all right. you think we will get there within the next year? >> oh, yes sir. i think so. lou: i needed that. it is great to see you and talk with you, as always. up next, we will show you an extraordary video. hardened criminals as some of the country's toughest prisons. punishment and prison. it does not always go together. and what are we looking at here? shopping in a beautiful commissary, fitting punishment for these nasty felons. what about multimillion-dollar recreational facilities. well, that would work, too. m&m' one of my favorites along with world-class recreational

facilities. tonight author of the new book the death of punishmen that and more straight ahead. ♪ lou: president obama's says it is not about his managerial style. it is about that big old federal government that he has to manage. the "a-team" react to the president's style in his latest softball interview. jim's toronto, study now hughes, jim's toronto, study now hughes, and fred barnes next. this is the quicksilver cash back card from capil one. it's not the "limithe cash i earnvery month" card. it's not the "i oy earn decent rewards at t gas station" card. it's the no-games, no-signing up, everyday-rewarding, kung-fu-fighting, silver-lightning-in-a-bottle, bringing-home-the-bacon cash back card. this is the quicksilver card from capital one. unlimited 1.5% cash back on eve purchase, everywhere, every single day. so ask yourself, what's in your wallet?

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advocating smaller government apparently. joining me now, the "a-team," news director for the two-party news network, opinion page editor, "wall street journal", james toronto, executive editor at the weekly standard, fox news contributor. good to see you all. let me start with you. did that sound like a tea party at of some sort? >> the next one for the 2013 elections. thank you. .ast time i checked the is the and of the executive branch. that is called a leader. that is exactly what he was elected to do, to be the leader. style. once again he is passing the buck. the blame starts with them. >> here is something else that the president said in the same interview, invest in b.c. tweeted this out. lou: i can't wait for this. >> ", government is not somebody else. government is us. we have the capacity to change it. what that tells you is when this president up in his mouth, what

comes out is just black bird. you cannot take it seriously. >> that is the foundation of the very strong, pass an income and personal philosophy. >> well, in a way it is between of the president wants not to eliminate government departments some of them should be. the thing so why does he propose that we not eliminate them. we know that we want to increase the size of government, hire more people and give government more power and take it away from congress or if congress does not go along, the federal government will do it. so he does have a view of government. it is government debt is bigger, but taxes more and has a lot more power over individual americans. lou: just within the last two days t president also again sounding like a tea party chieftain as he railed against

the inequities of the income distribution in the country, the heartless disparate distribution of wealth across, as if he had not been president for five years. >> his entire goal the whole time is to literally take from the rich and give to the board. this is what he campaigned on. you're sitting here talking about the expansion of governnt committee introduced obamacare as chief legislation. literally almost double the size of government. when it enacted completely. once again, it is just what is coming of his mouth. he is on the campaign trail. american people bought it up until now. his approval ratings are abysmal >> the speech about inequality was not at tea party speech. it was in occupy wall street speech. a call for socialism, take money away from the rich and give it to the port. the best example of why this is not that tea party president, think about obamacare coming into effect. one of the main functions of

obamacare parties insurance subsidies that they will use to try to lure people to buy insurance from private companies. so we are going to borrow money from the chinese in order to prop up insurance companies. that is nothing the tea party would approve of. lou: by the way, that has been going on for quite some time. before we get all, you know, seemingly concerned aut the purist aspect of the government and the separation of the private sector, who in the world did you think is driving the health sector in this country? medicare and medicaid are extraordinary entitlements. fred, i mean, socialized medicine in some form has been a major part of this society and government and economy for a very long time. >> and it does redistribute income to a certain extent. lou: exactly. >> and obama would like more of that. igree. thht is not a tea party speech. it is aimed at the left-wing base of the democratic party.

lou: what do you guys know? study notes uses right here right now. you tell us, with the tea party like to see more opportunity, greater -- a greater, stronger middle-class? would you want to be one of those occupy wall street things. >> of course, that is what the tea party is 56 there you go. you are trying to talk about this. u are better than jay carneyy3 this point. lou: i cannot wait to associated to one of yours. >> well, you have to sit here and look at it. this president a month as much of a two-party presidents as i would say stalin could be considered a two-party -- [laughter] lou: we will continue with the "a-team" despite any judgment to the contrary. be sure to check us out on twitter. you can follow us. gosar facebook page. find it atacebook dot com ??? "lou dobbs tonight." up next, the white house makes a stunning conssion about the status of the benghazi investigation.

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♪ lou: well, i want to turn them back to th "a-team", secretary carey said he believes israel and the palestinians are closer to peace than they have been for years. we will see how that works out. hopefully it will work out. we are back with the "a-team." i want to start with the speaker of the house to said, the gop. this kind of reminds me of the chairman of the rnc saying that the report after the failures in 2012, they called it their autopsy. the speaker saying that they should be more sensitive to women. he said -- i try to tell them, be a little more sensitive. this is in response to a question about why they were having sensitivity training for some of the candid it's. fred barnes, tell me what this -- what happens in your city to

the intellects particularly republican leaders. >> i am not taking any responsibility for what the speaker of the house said. look, republicans do have a problem. democrats use this issue of the so-called war on women, and it works because republicans do not have a good response. the need to fight back. and never go into a discussion that somehow excuses' rape. as long as they -- lou: wait a minute. back up. hang on just a second. i am trying to make notes for the people who do not comprehend that. iean, i -- i guess what i am saying is, is the republican party so befuddled andts leaders that it does not understand the importance of a triple digit iq to begin with and decent principles and values? >> here is the thing, what he said is insulting. i am personally insulted, not because i am sensitive but not because i'm sensitive, because he is in a st. you need to treat

me different for either of you guys on this panel. i wanto be treated different because i have blond hair and a female and kenaf kids. i want to be treated the exact same way based upon my intellect. if you're going to hire me or talk to me differently because i am a woman, don't talk to me at all. that is a problem the conservative message has. the ly people very progressive and discriminate. lou: well, you think the conservatives? >> that's a good point. it is not working for the democrats. the number one group that is disenfranchised from obama are women, yet he is sensitive to us? please. >> this about todd a can. you know, republicans should not have nominated an idiot for the senate in missouri last year. let's keep in mind, his campaign got support. a pro player mechanical pact ran ads in favor. and so, you know, he was kind of set up by the democrats. lou: set up, -- >> in the primary.

>> the primary. lou: the primary which was, of course, the thing to do if you're a democrat. they were successful, and the republicans did not have a message. now here we are a year later talking about both amen and a leader of the republican party talking in the most effectively derogatory terms imaginable about their own party and their candidates. i mean go ahead. >> you are taking this way too serious. lou: you know what, you're right. and taking it too seriously. i should not in anyay expect that the leader of one major party should have this sense not to use language and the positioning of the party and himself in such a way as to give aid and comfort to the party to which he is opposed politically. right? >> wrong. lou: oh, okay. >> it was an offhand comment on anything else, but republicans do need to deal with this issue

and not, you know, be more sensitive, but to be tougher in fighti the absurd charge that there -- lou: margaret, you can't -- >> the republicans keep taking this token that the liberals tell us, telling a woman that having children were staying at home as an insult. that is bad. we are not taking that. that is just as important as being a ceo fortune 500 company. we need to pise women and all levels despite we praise men and all levels. that is where we're missing a message. >> i would just like to say a word here about the warm man. tomorrow's "wall street journal" about a young man and joshua strange, a student at auburn university, accused by is extra friend of sexual assault. he went through an absolute travesty of process which was basically mandated on him by the obama administration, and this sort of case needs to get more attention. tweeted in tomorrow's wall street journal. lou: tomorrow's wall street journal. i guarantee you that i will.

about you? and study, the key for being here. we appreciated. fred barnes, thank you, and i'm going to learn not to take republican leader seriously. i am going to begin with your counsel here tonight. >> very good. lou: up next, the new book, that the punishment. taking a look at the stunning reasons why our prison system is so expensive a incredibly prides perks and punishes you. we are coming right back with author robert blocker. ♪ lou:

♪ lou: an update to a story i was telling you about yesterday, and it really in the vernacular hacks me off. the obama administration announcing today that it will allow three energy companies to kill or injure bald and golden

eagles for up to 30 years without penalty. it is called taking in the law. the change was requested by the wind energy indtry whose win farms are responsible for killing lots of thousands of birds every year, including, unfortunately, many of these eagles. and it is -- anyway, it is a terrible thing. turning now to our failing correctional system, our next guest to is here, i think, two weeks ago when we for started talking to about a system of justice that is mocking the very idea of just in proportion of punishment. your content -- here to continue our conversation about wha has happened to the fundamental credo of let the punishment fit the crime is a professor of criminal law at the new york law school and the author of the important book, the death the punishment. good to have you back with us. >> thank you. lou: you have spent how many hours, days.

i mean, it is incredible. and to see that some of the facilities that are available to our prisoners, if we could start to see some of the video, the places, i mean, running shoes, president obama that advertises the world's largest prison rodeo. i mean, what in the world has become of our prison system? >> it is an instrument for justice. it may not be -- i think they're inappropriate. have them and have people who committed relatively trivial crimes engaged with them,ut the ft these -- we don't make the discrimination. and that convicted murderers who are well behaved inside and get transferred to the parts of the prison that you can see and mock the very idea of justice. lou: and a good time for a rapist, murdered, this is -- how

does all of this began? there was, you know, sheriff joe are pile and arizona, he had, you know, being a jumpsuits are has been jumpsuits for prisoners. he does not give them any meal beyond a bologna sandwich for lunch, and he is considered to be a very harsh and hard character for so doing. how do we get to the point that it has become an entertainment land for many? >> well, just to stop such a prison door. that is the irony. that is where it is supposed to start. that is where it stops. a measure this series of the punishment by the length. that is what we are so used to. many years, but not what the experience is like dayoday. the essence of punishment is the daily experience of it. so what we have our facilities that do not discriminate on the basis of the nature of the crime he committed to go there, but on indiscriminate and how will you be able to why there.

lou: was put you in context for our audience is the author of this book. do you believe in capital punishment? >> i do, but only for the worst of the worst of the worst. lou: what is the worst of the worst of the worst? the number of people killed, how they killed people? is it the manner in which they kill people? >> it can be. aristotle first deserved that evil is found in the extremes. but fundamentally what makes somebody the worstf the worst of the worst is the attitude with which he kills. and at one extreme there are the sadistic serial killers here take extme pleasure in applying pain and torture in their victims. at the other and there are the cold, callous, 110, crude don't take any pleasure. they don't care. i spent some time with sprays your stomach acid go on a corner with a machine gun andust mowed down everyone on the corner. i would ask them, and there would be going after one particular guy who they see. i think, well, when you shot, did you ever think aut the fact that there was a whole

group here that you would be killing people whose mothers and sisters and children would be grieving, people that you had no beef with, people you have no quarrel with? and they would pause said. the love between us was probable. one of them i cannot repeat on air. the one said, should have gotten in a way of my bolide. that is the callousness, a coldness, a once in this. one part of it is the measurement by which the attitude, and the other is, as you point out, the consequence, those who are multiple killers and serial killers. one person killed with intent, premeditation. lou: capal punishment. >> premeditation is not the issue. the 19th century great thinker on this issue pointed out that an abused wife can mull it over. she cannot escape with her children. and the other hand, she gets been to a pulp repeatedly in his back and forth and plans it out and kills her husband. someone else walks down the

road, sees a child fishing off the bridge and for no reason suddenly and spontaneously for sport bushes and off to watch them struggle and the onrushing river and drowned. the first is premeditated killers, the second is a sudden and spontaneous killer. the premeditate killer, the abused spouse is much less deserving of punishment and is this sudden and spontaneous. so preditation is not the issue. the issue is even this to this -- the sadistic satisfaction on a cold, callous, mountainous area and the vulnerability of the victim. those who prey on vulnerable victims are especially heinous. lou: i find -- first of all, your point is exact, the distinction that you draw. but at the same time, it is not satisfying. the punishment, you know, a guy who smokes and get caught with a half pound of marijuana, which is legal now, will be a number of states, you know, how long should they be in prison? which other crimes that should be punished? and which should be the crimes

that we make certain our severe @% punishment. we will have to continue the conversation because we're running at a time as we enter a weekend.

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